Valerie -Welcome to the Bookworthy podcast. Today, we are talking with Kelly McKinney about her middle-grade book, Jeff Pennit’s, Guide to Raising Happy Parents. Welcome to Bookworthy Kelly.
Kelli -Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here.
Valerie - It's a pleasure to have you with us, but to start us off, you need to answer one fun little question. What is the most memorable Halloween costume you wore or your kids wore?
Kelli -Oh my goodness, I have a couple, but the one that pops into my mind when my son was in fourth grade, he loved the video game Plants vs. Zombies. And so I made a paper mache, a giant paper-mache zombie head and outfitted him with an old brown jacket from, um, from my dad and sent him off to school in this giant zombie head. So it was too big to actually go through some of the elementary school doorways. So it didn't quite, yeah, but it was a lot of fun. There's that one. And then when I was in fourth grade, I loved clowns, mostly because they scared my brother. And so I did the full like polyester clown costume and white makeup. And yeah, so that was fun.
Valerie -I think that's one of those classic Halloween costumes that almost every kid has to experience once is the clown costume.
Kelli -Yes, and I look back at the photos from my fourth grade. I'm like, oh no, that's terrifying. Oh, yeah.
Valerie -Oh my goodness. Yeah, I'm not sure what my kids are dressing up as this year, so we'll see. It's usually either really planned out or it's last minute. They all love dressing up.
Kelli -Yeah, isn't that the way it goes? Now, mine is off in college now, so I'm hoping that he sends me a picture of whatever it is he ends up in.
Valerie -Hopefully he stays safe and has fun at the same time, right? Well, Kelly, tell us a little bit about yourself and your family.
Kelli -Well, I am a, let's see, I've been married for 24 years this fall. My husband is a Houston native by way of Oklahoma, and we have an almost 19-year-old son who is, as I just said, often his first year of college, so that has brought a lot of change in our little household. So I'm officially an empty nester, which is so weird.
Valerie -You are wearing it well, I will say.
Kelli -Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. It's, yeah, God has been good to us, you know. Yeah, I'm just looking forward to this next chapter of our lives, for sure.
Valerie -As a Texas native myself, what college did your son go off to?
Kelli -He went to Abilene Christian.
Valerie -Okay. I had a cousin that went there. As long as it's yeah. So she lived in Abilene and went to ACU, uh, quite a while ago, but heard good things.
Kelli -Yeah, it's been great so far.
Valerie -Very fun. Well, your book, Jeff Pennant's Guide to Happy Parents, is a fun middle-grade book about Jeff. Can you tell us a little bit about Jeff and what brings him to write such a guide for happy parents?
Kelli -Oh, goodness. Well, Jeff, bless his heart. Jeff is in that stage of childhood where, you know, you go from being kind of the center of your world to realizing that other people have feelings and needs and wants. And so when his, this is about him kind of, his eyes opening to that. And you know, Ephesians, sorry, not Ephesians, Philippians 2 versus 3 talks about doing nothing from selfish ambition or empty conceits, but think of others as more important than yourselves. And so that's the verse that kind of guided me through Jeff's growth is how he learns to do just that with the help of his parents and some friends and a teacher, a very important teacher and the memories of his grandmother.
Valerie -So fun. I must tell you in reading some of your book, I felt like you were in my living room because I have an 11-year-old and I, and if just totally all the antics that Jeff gets into is literally what goes on in my home. My 11-year-old is right now in charge of trash. And I know there's a scene at the beginning where there was a trash incident and. I'm just like, yep, that's happened in my home. So I felt seen as a parent reading that book. Now, kind of one of his motivations of Jeff is that he wants to go to gamer con, so video games is kind of his motivation for most of his actions in the book as a mom of boys, how did that experience of raising a boy who probably loved video games to help you write from Jeff's point of view.
Kelli -I have to say, I mean, my son is a little bit like Jeff in that he has a lot of varied interests, and he is interested in them very intently, you know. But I think as far as video, like I enjoyed, I grew up with video games as well, and learning to moderate is an important skill. And so I kind of, I looked through it. There have been many times. In my son's raising where we've had discussions about, you know, this is time to, there are times for everything and this is not the time for the video games. I feel like I'm maybe not answering your question very well.
Valerie -No, you're doing a great job. No, it's just kind of one of those video games is this big draw to kids and has become a very big social element for kids. And I thought it was really neat to see Jeff struggling with that as, you know, I know as a parent struggle with managing my kids screen time as well. And so I appreciated that perspective.
Kelli -And this was, I think, it does. And I think this was written during the beginning months of COVID. And when being online was the only way that my son could connect with his friends, and I felt that struggle, that tension, even though he was older at the time, wanting to encourage him to do something else, but also knowing how important being connected to other people really is. And so half the time when he was on his headsets, they really weren't playing, they were just talking. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It's hard to know where that line is. And I tried to authentically show that struggle. I hope I did it.
Valerie -I feel you did because it's kind of living my life day by day is watching my kids having to make the decisions that, hey, is your obedience more important than this game? When I say it's time to turn off and it's just, it's, I don't know. I was like, okay.
Kelli -Now, who are you honoring in that moment, you know, making sure that you are honoring your, you know, honoring your mother and father? That's, there's many discussions.
Valerie -Yes, a lot. Now as Jeff goes through the story as he tries to make his parents happy so he can get to GamerCon, what is his big light bulb moment as he discovers kind of what does make a happy parent?
Kelli -Yeah, I think, you know, this book actually was written to be read together in a lot of ways. And I think as a parent, when you read through it, you see lots of little moments that ought to be light bulb moments, but they don't end up being that. And I don't want to give too much away. But I think it has a, it builds to where Jeff doesn't have anything left to lose. And at least in his mind, he doesn't have anything left to lose. And so that moment of realizing that it's more important to humble yourself. I think it happens close to when he recognizes that he actually does enjoy spending time with his parents and he actually does enjoy that relationship. And that's an important relationship. I think that's when the lightbulb turns on is when his heart and his mind are both opened at the same time.
Valerie -Very neat. It's what is it? What we as parents hope our kids experience at any moment, please.
Kelli -And we're tested a lot, aren't we? And I think with kids, they don't, at least for Jeff, he took the tests personally and his pride was a little bit of an issue as it is with all of us, right? I mean, we're all, we all struggle with those things. And so I really wanted to give him an authentic moment to recognize, okay. I'm the problem here. It's me, I'm the problem. And I hope that comes across. And you really, there's so many things in this book where I feel like, I wanted to write something that I could have used as a parent of a young boy and reading, we read with our son until he was well into high school and that will spark those conversations of, what should he have done in this moment? What do you think he was feeling? Do you ever feel like that? Those sorts of conversations, I think, can bring families closer together, which is one of the goals of this book.
Valerie -And I really think you've done that just to help, what is it, parents see a kid's perspective and a kid's to see the parent's perspective in the situation that Jeff is going through. And I really enjoyed that. Now, there's one character, Miss Petty, who is their science teacher. And I really loved her. I was like, every kid should have a Miss Petty in their life. And I was wondering, did you have a Miss Petty teacher, that encourage creativity and curiosity in your schooling?
Kelli -I was fortunate to have several Miss Petty's, but the ones that stand out in my mind was my third-grade teacher and her name was Mrs. Marquette. And Mrs. Marquette was the kind of teacher where, so my dad traveled a lot when I was young and oh, I cried. I cried when my dad would go, and you know, you imagine this, eight-year-old girl in your classroom struggling to kind of keep it together. Sometimes she would, she was so encouraging and she was so respectful. Um, and would often, you know, tell me to think about, you know, how my dad feels when he's, when he's off someplace else. And not only does he have me to miss, but he has my mom and my siblings. And, um, she would encourage me to think of different ways to fight, to spend my time and to, and different things to think about. And often there, I remember one time, I was having a hard time and she gave me my favorite book, which is
Charlotte's Web, it still is Charlotte's Web, and said, why don't you distract, you know, go read, read a good story. And I said, okay, thank you. I mean, I think every teacher has a student like me at one point or another. And the good ones really know, like you said, to channel creativity and to be respectful and kind. And she looked after me. There's a scene in Jeff Pennant where she seeks him out, the Miss Petty seeks him out in the library. And I was actually thinking of Mrs. Mark Witt when I wrote that because that's exactly what she would do. She would kind of check in on me and other people as well. So.
Valerie - I love how teachers have that impact. I have several teacher friends and they say, come the end of the year, they basically build a family over the course of a year and then they have to say goodbye to their family. And so it's just like, ugh. But teachers have just an amazing power to influence little hearts and minds and to help you grow and to understand your world a little better. And I love that. And you said, Charlotte Webb is your, one of your favorite books, yes? Now, which character do you do love the most out of that book?
Kelli -It is, yes. Um, I wanted to be for an arable so badly. I really did. Um, because I've, I love animals and I, um, I don't know, just the way she, she was just on fire to save his little life. And, and I loved that. So I always wanted to be her.
Valerie -Yeah, she's such a great character of both compassion, caring, and spitfire. It's like every girl wants to be a little bit of both of those. So fun. Now you say on your website that you were a corporate marketer before wandering off to be a children's author. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey?
Kelli -Absolutely. Well, so early on, when I graduated college, you know, looking for a job, and I got so lucky and landed my dream job right out of the gate, working for the Oklahoma Arts Institute in public relations. And then from there, I took a little jump back to college and met my husband. But after that, I've been working or I had been working for Sprint and Walmart and just in brand marketing and advertising. And it's funny because you would think that I would be great at marketing my own book, but it's so different. It's so different when you're marketing something that's not yourself.
Valerie -There's a distance. They go, this is mine. You kind of want people to find it, but you don't want people to find it because they find out so much about you in your books too, right?
Kelli -Well, and I also, I mean, I came to Christ a little later in life and I, I felt really conflicted about what I was doing in advertising. I felt like maybe trying to get people to covet is not enough to want to buy a product. It isn't the way to go about things. And, and I was, I was really, really fortunate in that I was able to leave corporate world and to start freelance writing around that same time. God does such amazing things. Absolutely always is. So that's what I did.
Valerie -It's timing is perfect, right? So marketing was kind of your, you know, vein for a long time. Was there anything inside you as a kid who wanted to be a writer one day?
Kelli -Oh my gosh, I wrote my first book before I knew how to spell my name. I always knew when I, when I was very little, I always knew I wanted to write a book someday because I loved reading. I loved reading. I still do. And I knew I doubted myself a lot for a very long time. You know, it's a hard thing to do. Um, but God is gracious and, um, gave me. A lot of practice, a lot of trial and error, a lot of failure, and probably still some more failure to go through, but his way is best and I'm so, so grateful.
Valerie -Too sweet. Now, do you remember what that first book was about?
Kelli -I do in fact. It was about a cowboy named Sam who had some dubious moral qualities because he, I think he robbed a bank. He helped rob a bank and then decided that, yeah, he was going to keep the money and go run away into the desert somewhere. And yeah, it was about a cowboy.
Valerie -Sounds like you enjoy a fun character that has to discover things on his own. I can see a little bit of Jeff in that, or a little bit of that cowboy in Jeff too.
Kelli -Oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Yes.
Valerie -Too fun. Well, what was it? What is kind of, I think we've talked about this a little bit, but if you had kids walk away from your book with one message, what would you want them to walk away with?
Kelli -To honor your mother and father and to put other people in their needs before your own. And maybe listen to your grandmother once in a while.
Valerie -We forget how important those older minds and hearts are to us, don't we? Even as adults sometimes. So fun. Well, what has been the most impactful or inspirational book in your life, Kelly, other than the Bible?
Kelli- Oh, okay, other than the Bible, I... Man, the Bible just changed my life, so it's hard to think of a book that was not as impactful as that. Oh man, I'm gonna have to think about that. There was a book a long time ago and I kept it, gosh, for a very long time. It was about a girl who went to sleep away camp and she, the title of the book was Laura's Look and I remember relating so much to this young girl because things didn't quite go her way a lot of the time. But she persevered and she always she wanted so badly to do the right thing, but had a hard time doing the right thing sometimes and that one has always stuck with me. I'm thinking in particular about a time when there was a dress that she wanted. She was going to go to a party and she wanted to dress, but I think the dress was like $12 and she only had seven saved and I don't know why that stuck with me the way that it did, but just the things that we want are worth being patient for. And sometimes the things that we really want aren't the best things for us. So that's Laura's luck, I guess, to answer your question.
Valerie -Well, it sounds like a sweet book that really impacted you and helped you, was it, see yourself in another character and teach you so many wonderful things. I think that's the power of children's books is they have the power to help us see beyond ourselves and just see beyond the world that we live in. I love that your book has done that also just to help us,help me as a boy mom see beyond the gaming world that my kids like to live in and to see that, God's working on their hearts and their minds just as hard as I am.
Kelli -That's a thing that I've had to think about a lot over these past few weeks. And after taking my son to college and you pour in and you pour in and you pour in. And then when you know, not everybody is their path is not always college, but there is a letting go point and I have really taken a lot of comfort in knowing that God loved him. Even before I did and he loves me more than or he loves him. He loves me too, but he loves him even more than I could do. And oh my gosh, that's so much. And that, that just, that's so peaceful. And so I, I hope that, um, I don't know, as a, as a boy, mom, I hope that that's something that you can take comfort into.
Valerie -I know it's one of those things is, you know, our love for our kids is so big, it's hard to imagine a love beyond that because we'd do anything for them. And it's amazing that God does love a million times more than we can. And that just is so hard to comprehend, but like you said, it can be such a giver of peace when you're like when they're going through a hard time, and you're like, okay, God's gonna use this. God's gonna do what he needs to do to accomplish the goal that God has for your sons. And so, deep breath, right?
Kelli -Oh, absolutely. And that's, I hope in my little story that there are enough ups and downs that give parents things to talk about with their, sons and or daughters, but with their little readers. Yes, sometimes things are hard, but God teaches us something every step of the way. And we may not always see it in the moment, but it's there.
Valerie -That's right. And I love that you have the friendship element that Jeff and his two buddies and just the struggle that they have. And I think, you know, in this post-COVID world, friendship has been this awkward thing for my young kids. And that it's really neat to see the ups and downs that Jeff goes through with friendship, just to be like, yeah, it doesn't have, just because you have a friend, doesn't mean they don't talk to anybody else. That's hard for young minds to understand, like, just because they are your friend, but they can talk to other people too.
Kelli -Yeah, there is absolutely. And friendships can be so hard at that age because, I mean, again, they're seeing things through a me lens and people aren't, you know, they're not gaming, you can't use your little controller and make them do the things that you want them to do. That's not a kind thing. That's not a loving way to be. And learning to be a good friend is a very important skill.
Valerie -Yeah, it is, especially at kind of that middle-grade age because once they hop over to middle school, it's a whole new game, and then high school and college and it never stops. Well, Kelly, what can we expect next from you?
Kelli -I have, I'm working on a picture book right now, and I'm also working on another middle grade, and, God willing, I'm hoping they will find a home and be in front of eyes and hands soon, sooner rather than later. That's what I'm working on.
Valerie -Very, very neat. That's exciting to see things moving forward and exploring your creativity and the worlds that you want to create for readers and parents too. So where can people find out more about you, Kelly?
Kelli -I'm excited. So you can find Jeff Pennant at my Publishers website, which is chickenscratchbooks.com. And you can also find it at my website, which is kellymckinney.com. And that's Kelly with an I, M-C-K-I-N-N-E-Y.
Valerie-Very fun. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Kelly.
Kelli -Valerie, thank you so much for having me. Best of luck with your podcast and all the things that you have going on.
Valerie -Thank you so much. And thank you for joining Kelly and me on this episode of the Bookworthy Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes for any books or links we discussed. Then let us know in the comments what was your most memorable Halloween costume. And don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button to help us discover more great books together.
Happy reading.
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